HOTSEAT: It's New Unionism Day!

On the HotSeat, Mark Simon of the reform-minded Mooney Institute talks about union-foundation collaboration (he's for it), progressive union leadership (there's more of it than you think), and debunks the myth that progressive union local presidents are usually defeated. Then he slams the Obama administration for not hiring enough progressive union types (yet). 

Simon tells us how the Mooney Institute grew out of TURN, and what unions (and reformers) can do to improve academic achievement. Then he predicts that KIPP will be unionized within a year and that "thin" contracts aren't all they're hyped up to be.  He's all over the place, this guy. 

Along the way I make him explain or apologize for everything union-related I can think of.

Thanks to TFA Michele for suggesting this interview.  If you've got ideas about who would be good -- innovative, counterintuitive, candid people who might not otherwise get the attention but have interesting things to say -- let me know.]

What concrete changes do you think are going to come from this AFT Innovation thing being announced today?

MS: It could help motivate bold, collaborative labor/management initiatives in some locals.

The Gates Foundation recently hired John Deasy, who you know from back in the day. Should that give us any hope for future Gates initiatives?

MS: Yes. They've hired several great picks lately, John Deasy, Steve Seleznow, Lynn Olson, not to mention Vickie Phillips herself. If you can work with the union and the teachers, the chances of reform succeeding is exponentially increased.

Is there any real reason to hope that teachers unions will be more flexible and innovative in the future than they have been in the past?

MS: Yes. I think Randi Weingarten and Dennis Van Roekel are smart, visionary leaders. Now the challenge is to create an engine to support local leaders to be equally visionary, innovative, and bold.

Don't reform-minded leaders tend to get voted out of office?

MS: Recently more of the opposite is the case. In Minneapolis, Cleveland, Montgomery County, Milwaukee, and lots of other locals, reform minded presidents replaced more traditional bread-and-butter leaders. But democracy keeps you on your toes.

Who was Tom Mooney anyway, and why is there an institute named after him?

MS: Tom was the innovative president of the Cincinnati Federation of Teachers for 24 years, and an AFT Vice President. He made his local union an engine of reform.

What's the difference between the Mooney Institute and TURN?

MS: TURN came first. Then a few of us decided that more intensive work was needed with locals and leaders. We created the Mooney Institute to do that.[More background from EdWeek here.]

So how many TURN locals are participating in the Mooney Institute initiative, and who are they?

MS: Nine locals were in the first cohort: Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Prince Georges' County, Org. of DeKalb Educators, Decatur, Elgin and Springfield, Il. We're looking to build a second cohort.

What's the Institute's biggest accomplishment?

MS:  I think the biggest accomplishment is the feedback we are able to give to locals -- detailed written confidential reports based on site visits.

Unions are traditionally for low-wage, unskilled workers. Why do we need teacher unions in the first place?

MS: School systems are hierarchical institutions and the teachersvoice is weak without unions.

Why two unions? Isn’t that overkill?

MS: AFT and NEA need to get together and form one education union that preserves the best of each. The resources could be better used to support local leadership development. A merger could help do that.

People always bring up peer review at some point in the teacher quality discussion, but it's never persuaded enough people to spread it nationally -- why is that?

MS: Most union locals are open to it because they know it would be a lot better than teacher evaluation done by school principals. But they just don't think that quality control is their job. I think they're wrong.

If you had to choose between revamping the senior salary schedule (merit pay, performance pay, etc.) or revamping tenure protections, which would you choose?

MS: Neither. Pay can be a useful lever for school system improvement, and pay for performance can be an artful way of using a career lattice to reward teacher leadership and encourage our best teachers to stay in teaching. But most of the pay for performance proposals I have seen will motivate teachers to do the wrong things. It’s easier to do damage and waste money on Pay for Performance than do good.

What about getting rid of tenure?

MS: What I would choose is to invest in improving the teacher evaluation system. That's gong to be more powerful as a tool for improving the quality of teaching and learning than either of your sound-bite solutions.

"Thin" contracts -- yay or nay?

MS: Perhaps. A strong professional union will get more done outside the contract than in negotiating the document. You can do side letters of agreement at any time. But remember, the contract is the only legal basis for the teachers' voice to having to be heard.

This time next year, will the KIPP network of charter schools be unionized?

MS: Yes. If you want teachers to stick around and build a career in teaching -- which I think is good for schools and good for communities -- and you're asking them to work really hard, as KIPP does, then its only a matter of time before a union makes sense.

Who's the person in the Obama administration who "gets" teacher quality and labor issues best?

MS: There aren't many that Arne's brought in yet who fit that description, but he still has a lot of positions unfilled. Jo Anderson [a Mooney Institute member] was a smart choice. To tell the truth, the Obama Administration has some work to do to bring in people with experience who get this stuff.

Comments

[GGW]

Interesting interview.

When he's wrong in a year and KIPP is not unionized, be sure to re-interview him!

[Nancy Flanagan]

Thanks for asking the sharp-stick questions, AR, and thanks for mentioning Tom Mooney, whose untimely death did not halt the quest to re-think the work of unions.

As for unionizing KIPP, the best possible outcome would be for KIPP teachers to do two things: #1) join the union to achieve the level of compensation their above/beyond work ethic merits and #2) have a salutary effect on their union leaders and union policies. It's a new day out there. We can't afford us vs. them thinking any more.

Good interview.